Sunday, August 5, 2012

Not yet!

So I ran my code that determines years/availability/costs/etc against about 4400 of the 5200 canon units.  Basically all the mechs, fighters, and combat vehicles.  It appears that at least 4% of those units, are introduced before their equipment became available.  I say at least 4%, as quite a few had   various little issues I haven't looked into yet, and didn't have their information checked.

I know TPTB hate details, like years, but unfortunately that is simply one of the responsibilities they have in development of a game such as this.  In a game like 40K, the year simply isn't important.  The universe doesn't really move through time like BT always has.  In SFB it is important, as they have events in years, and all those units have years.  BT simply needs the introductory years and such to be consistent to keep the quality that has kept the game going 25 years, to loose that quality, is the beginning of the end IMO.

I won't post the whole list of issues, as its just a boring read, but I will publish a list of all the canon units I checked that are introduced before their years of introduction (according to the canon MUL 19 June data).  But, here is the list of units that don't match up:

Ahab AHB-643
Annihilator C 2
Aquagladius AQS-3
Aquagladius AQS-4
Archer C
Argus AGS-4D
Assassin ASN-30
Atlas AS7-S2
Atlas C
Awesome AWS-10KM
Axman AXM-3S
Barghest BGS-2T
BattleMech Recovery Vehicle
Batu [Z]
Beowulf BEO-X-7A
Black Hawk (Nova) [E]
Black Knight (Royal) BL-6b-KNT
Black Knight BL-10-KNT "Ross"
Black Knight BL-6-RR
Blackjack BJ-4
Bombard BMB-013
Buster XXI
Carbine CON-1
Carbine CON-1 (RL)
Carrier, Light, Thunderbolt
Carrier, LRM
Carrier, SRM
Cataphract CTF-5MOC (Naomi)
Celerity CLR-02-X-D
Cestus CTS-6X
Champion (Royal) CHP-1Nb
Champion CHP-3P
Commando COM-4H
Commando COM-7S
Copperhead CPR-HD-003
Copperhead CPR-HD-004
Crab CRB-30
Crosscutt ED-X2 (RL)
Cyclops CP-11-C
Daedalus (Militarized) GTX2
Dagger DAR4-XP
Daimyo DMO-1K2 "Al-Shahab"
Daishi (Dire Wolf) [D]
Daishi (Dire Wolf) [X]
Defiance DFN-3C
Demolisher II
Deva C-DVA-O [Achillius]
Dragon Fire DGR-6FC2 "Gregory"
Dragonfly (Viper) [F]
Dragonfly (Viper) [Z]
Eagle EGL-1M
Eagle EGL-2M
Enforcer ENF-5D "Daniel"
Engineering Vehicle Flamer
Exterminator EXT-5E
Eyleuka EYL-35A
Eyleuka EYL-4A
Falcon FLC-4Nb
Fire Scorpion 1
Firestarter FS9-C
Flashman FLS-9C
Flatbed Truck RL
Gabriel TDF
Galleon GAL-200 (RL)
Gladiator (Executioner) [E]
Gotha GTHA-600
Great Turtle GTR-1
Griffin GRF-2N
Grigori C-GRG-O [Rufus]
Hachiwara HCA-3T
Hachiwara HCA-4T
Hachiwara HCA-4U
Hammerhead HMR-HC
Hatamoto-Chi HTM-27T "Daniel II"
Hatchetman HCT-5S "Austin"
Hellfire 1
Hermes (Royal) HER-1Sb
Hermes HER-4M
Highlander HGN-732 "Colleen"
Highlander HGN-736
Hunchback HBK-4G "Hohiro"
Hunchback HBK-5S
Hunter (Sea Hunter)
Hussar HSR-500-D
Hussar HSR-900-D
Icestorm 1
Jinggau JN-G7L
Juggernaut JG-R9T3
Katya C-904
Katya C-905
Katya C-906
Kintaro KTO-21
Kiso K-3N-KR4
Kiso K-3N-KR5
Korvin KRV-2
Korvin KRV-3
Koshi (Mist Lynx) [G]
Koshi (Mist Lynx) [Z]
Koto KTO-2A
Lancelot LNC25-04
Locust LCT-1L
Longbow LGB-13NAIS
Lumberjack LM4/P
Malak (Angel) C-MK-O [Mi]
Man O` War (Gargoyle) [E]
Marco MR-8C
Marco MR-8D
Marco MR-8E
Marksman AC
Marshal MHL-X1
Mauna Kea
Mauna Kea LRM
Mauna Kea LRT
Merkava Mk VIII
Nightstar NSR-9J "Brubaker"
Onslaught SA-OS2
Orion ON1-K "Kerensky"
Orion ON1-MC
Ostsol OTL-8D
Ostwar OWR-2Mb
Owens OW-1B [B]
Pariah (Septicemia) [A-Z]
Pariah (Septicemia) [B-Z]
Pariah (Septicemia) [C-Z]
Pariah (Septicemia) [Z]
Phoenix Hawk IIC 5
Phoenix Hawk Mk I PHX-HK1R
Phoenix Hawk PXH-1c (Special) (Royal)
Pouncer [F]
Preta (Ghost) C-PRT-O [Kendali]
Prowler PWR-1X1
Puma (Adder) [E]
Puma PAT-005b (Royal)
Puma PMA-007
Puma PMA-008
Quasit QUA-51T
Raven RVN-1X
Raven RVN-3X
Raven RVN-4L
Raven RVN-4LC
Rifleman C
Rifleman IIC 5
Ripper Infantry
Rotunda RL
Rusalka B [Infernus]
Sabutai [Z]
Samurai SL-25
Savage Coyote [Z]
Schiltron [F]
Seraph C-SRP-O [Havalah]
Shadow Hawk C
Shadow Hawk IIC 5
Silver Fox SVR-5X
Silver Fox SVR-5Y
Stiletto STO-4A
Stinger STG-6S
Stuka STU-K5b
T-12 Tiger
Talon TLN-5Z
Temax Cat Ninjabolt TMC-NB
Tessen TSN-1C
Thanatos TNS-4S "Felix"
Thor (Summoner) [E]
Thor AC
Thorn THE-Nb
Thunder Stallion 3
Thunder THR-2L
Thunderbolt C
Thunderbolt TDR-5Sb
Thunderbolt TDR-9Nr
Tomahawk C
Tomahawk THK-63b (Royal)
Tracked APC LRM
Tracked APC SRM
Tsunami TS-P1D
Turkina [Z]
Typhoon (Typhoon-A) TFN-3A
Typhoon TFN-2A
Valkyrie VLK-QA
Valkyrie VLK-QF
Victor VTR-9B (C)
Vulcan VT-5S
Vulture (Mad Dog) [D]
Warhammer C
Werewolf WER-LF-005
Wheeled APC LRM
Wheeled APC SRM
Whitworth WTH-3
Wolf Trap (Tora) WFT-1 "Daitama"
Wolfhound IIC (Grinner)
Zhukov WoB

Stay tuned!


  1. Korvin, I assume the issue is the Large Laser. The Large Laser date was errated to 2316 (and the KRV-2 is 2360). (See TM v1.2).

    "Grinner": In 3051, "Grinner" would be considered experimental mixed tech base (IS full-head ejection system). It wasn't considered worth two record sheets to have a 3051 only version listed as experimental, nor to have Grinner banned from standard play from 3052 on. Grinner existed in 3051 as a very unique unit.

    Jinggau 7L: I recall the discusson on that one. The problem was the very first Jinggau was a 7L. It was a failure. Shengli shut down the line for a year and finally came out with the 8A instead. After the plasma rifle was perfected (3068), the 7L returned to production. I argued for a 3068 intro date on the 7L, others wanted the intro date to make it clear the 7L was the initial first unit. Either way, the intro date doesn't tell the whole story by itself, as with the "grinner".

    Several you seem to be counting prototype weapons as the full weapons. The Starterbook Sword and Dragon and Klondike units for example.

    VT-5S?? MUL intro date 3050 (and I don't recall that changing in years). UAC/5, ML, Flamer, MG. SHS, MASC, CASE, FF, Jump Jets, XL Engine. What's not available in 3050?

    Zhukov (WOB): MUL date 3071. MML is 3068. LVSP 3070. C3i 3062. Not sure where the problem is?

    Wight-1LAW/SC. MUL date 3068. Heavy PPC 3067. ER ML 3058. Compact engine 3068. endo, double heat sinks. not sure where the problem is there.

    (Note: several I have seen the issue with, WTH-3 and IJJs for example. I've just listing ones I have questions on. Any chance of getting a list with the problem equipment noted? It would make this much quicker, thanks).

    1. My actual output on the query/calculation I had done was like:

      "Hunter (Sea Hunter) is available in 3068, yet the Heavy Ferro-Fibrous becomes available in 3069"

      But some units had 2+ lines as they had multiple equipment, so I removed all the duplicates and just listed the units.

      Looking at the ones you mentioned:
      Korvin: Large Laser, Page 291, TM 1.2 PDF, Date is still 2316. I will NOT try to keep up with dozens of pages of errata on dozens of products, that is insane, and not everybody is logging into the site and many people rely on their books. So, until the PDF gets updated or I happen to come across some errata, I just don't go looking for it. Call me lazy I guess, but the inconsistency of TPTB to support their products is a step towards insanity, which I am already precariously close to ;)

      Grinner. Hmmmm, if I made the full head ejection IS tech instead of clan, it becomes ok. However, I can find nothing stating that it is mixed tech. I could do it if the canon supports that its mixed and not pure clan, or if there was some errata somewhere. The IS full head ejection is available in 3023 instead of 3052.

      Jinggau. So, the plasma rifle needs another date, perhaps making it experimental earlier so it could indeed be on the 7L. Again though, I'm sticking with canon facts, and even if there is a "story behind it", computers work with facts, and I can't start adding all these exceptions to a ruleset. I'm not making a wiki, I'm making a database that is 100% canon, that can be used to print record sheets, play games, track your units, just no place for special stories there :( But I do understand what your saying.

      VT-5S. Typo on my part (Probably a lot of these as that was a LOT of data entry), I had the UAC5 ammo listed as UAC20. Fixed.

      Zhukov (WOB). The LVSP I had as 3072, but my latest TO had it as 3070, so I updated my table and it should no longer be an issue. I did go through and do an update from the recent 50+ pages of errata, but I didn't follow it up by verifying the TacOps PDF update, which appears had additional changes implemented.

      Wight has heavy ferro fibrous, that wasn't available until 3069.

      Here is the raw output of the query I did for this stuff:

      I removed duplicate lines. This is only mechs/industrialmechs/LAMs, all sorts of combat vehicles, and fighters/aerospace fighters.

      if you see things like "Standard" its probably control, structure, life support, or sensors. Hopefully you can understand my weapon codes ok, I think most make sense. There could very well be some bugs, pointing them out will get them fixed ;) Sometimes you may see something like "Compact" without more detail, hopefully looking at the entry on my site will help.

      Things in []'s are an omni configuration.

      Shoot me any other questions you have.

  2. Looks like your having some problems with mixed tech.
    Warhammer C is available in 3050, yet the ERML becomes available in 3058
    Clan ERML is available well before 3058.

    The TM/TO dates are for full production, so Solaris designs where the whole unit is a prototype often have prototype equipment well before their full production date. So those won't change.

    Snub Nose PPCs....yeah. I lost that one long ago.

    Prototype SB:Sword and Dragon and Klondike. You seem to have the non-prototype weapon dates for the prototype weapons for many Klondike/Sword and DRagon units. HBK-4G "Hohiro" has prototype weapons for example. The same also applies to Solaris designs, though there's nothing int he file to identify a unit as a prototype for those.

    Korvin: not the large laser after all...

    Thanks for the list, still leaves me plenty to go over...

    1. Yeah, I had a bug in mixed tech items that I think I fixed after I created that last list.

      I really wish they would have released R&D and prototype dates for units in the TM, but once I have all the canon data, I should be able to extrapolate what those dates should be based on the introduction dates of units equipped with those items. This is one of the pet-peeves I have with CGL not properly supporting their products and only "half-assing" it.

      As for prototype weapons, I do have those weapons in my database but IIRC, the record sheet that I grabbed the data from never specified a prototype system (which is something like UAC/P for example) so I left it as the weapon on the RS. I'll go back through and take a look at those once I know all my formulas are correct.

      Unfortunately the new job I took uses up the 8 hours a day I was devoting to BT while not working so my progress has slowed to a crawl :(